How do you help someone who has a track record of high performance as an individual contributor become the next great leader? Tana Thomson, Xenium HR’s VP of Human Resources, joins the podcast to discuss how she believes aspiring leaders and high potential employees can develop their leadership skills, and how you as an employer can identify and encourage those individuals. In the interview, Tana shares how managers and leaders can work with these high potentials in a coaching relationship to develop leadership skills.
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Brandon: Welcome to the HR for Small Business podcast, this is your host Brandon Laws. Today, I am with Tana Thomson, she is Xenium’s VP of HR. A fearless leader of the HR professionals that we have at Xenium; and Tana loves development, coaching, leadership which ties in nicely with today’s topic, leadership coaching. She has had a lot of experience in working 1-on-1 with people and trying to get them to become the best leader that they can possibly be.
Tana, I wanted to first start our conversation by mentioning something I hear quite a bit, people say “leaders aren’t born, they are made.” What do you think about that particular quote? Some people on the other side of it will say, “leaders are born.”
Tana: Yeah, I used to think earlier on my career that leaders are born, but I think leaders can definitely be made. I think if they have the willingness to do the work on themselves and further develop their emotional intelligence, capabilities and do the work to hold up the mirror to themselves and really look to be a compassionate, inspiring leader, leaders can be made.
Brandon: If people put in the time and invest in leadership development, refining certain leadership skills, can they develop into a leader?
Tana: Absolutely. If they are willing and able and really want to be effective in leadership, a lot of it starts with just being effective as a self-manager and having good habits yourself. So, if you are committed to leadership and doing the work, and it’s a journey definitely, it’s not an end game, it’s a continual process and anybody could become a leader.
Brandon: Talk about that journey. So if I am an aspiring leader, newer in my career, I’m a midlevel manager and I am like, I just want to get to that next level leadership level, are there things that I can do on my own that would help develop those skills? Or do I really need somebody coaching or mentoring me, somebody internal or external in my organization helping me along the way?
Tana: I think there is a lot higher value in individualizing your leadership journey, so it’s a lot of self-study, reading books, attending workshops and seminars, listening to TED talks, whatever maybe it may be where you can soak up that information and knowledge but you really need it customized to your strengths and opportunities, and so having a leadership coach can really help you narrow in on what your gifts are and what your opportunities are and you can develop a plan of action and move into that action plan and get feedback along the way, and that can really help spearhead your growth.
Brandon: How might that be different than a regular 1-on-1 meeting? Because I hear that all the time, we do them here internally at Xenium, manager and employee relationship—there are 1-on-1 meetings—how are those different than what a coaching for leadership type of arrangement would be?
Tana: I think it’s more targeted around leadership competencies, and so you are going to look at that leader’s own communication style, preferences and tendencies. We could look at a 360 review or performance review where they have gotten feedback from their team, we could look at other assessments and we can build out what their leadership gaps and opportunities are. And then also, not to discount capitalizing on their strengths. We can do that with looking at some targeted leadership competencies and seeing how they’re measuring in each of those areas. So, I would say it’s similar to 1-to-1 but it’s more focused on leadership development and activities.
Brandon: You told me a story recently about one of our clients that approached you about coaching an up and coming leader who had some gaps. Can you give some background on that and where it started and then where you went from there?Tana: Sure. Had a situation with a senior level manager. He had been a strong performer, didn’t have a lot of formal management training or leadership training, and really had good intentions, but just wasn’t as clear on the leadership boundaries and appropriate communication and what’s different once you into that leadership role, so the situation was that he was given a last chance agreement in regards to behavior and he needed to shift his behavior significantly as it relates to being an effective leader and demonstrating those leadership behaviors and was willing to do the work and had been a strong performer. So I was speaking with the president of the company and offered this service, I said, I would love to help support him in his growth and development and we put together a plan and he was certainly willing to do the work because that’s the big piece of it – are you willing to do the work because it’s hard work to really build those leadership skills and create new habits and hold up the mirror and do the hard work and be vulnerable as a leader. And I had an initial call with him and he was really wide-eyed and engaged and excited about it, and he has just never been exposed to or received the training or development before, and we laid out a development plan, and we started with a book.
So some of the development plan may be some book reading outside of the meetings, and then we reconvene and talk about the message of the book, key takeaways, what can be applied, and then we have a check-in after to see how they are implementing or applying those key concepts from the particular book or articles that they have read.
And in this one, we started with the Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey Jr. and it really clicked. He was able to quickly hone in on the importance of that foundational trust and communication. Within a matter of months he said that the work environment was improved, his relationships were better, he had a clear understanding of how his actions’ impact set the tone for the overall workplace. So because he was open and willing to do the work, the timing has to be there as well, it really opened up his eyes to what it meant to be effective leader and he was willing to continue along that journey.
I had given him some other books to read after that, and we continued to meet to discuss key takeaways from those books. He really got onboard rather quickly so we stopped meeting after a few months.
So it may just be point in time or a particular goal that we’re trying to work on or some particular development area, or it may be something that’s just ongoing for a period of time, but it’s really important for leaders to continue to do the work and to really hone in on what their gifts are and what their shortcomings are. And it’s not always easy for leaders to see what their blind spots are, so through the work of an executive coach or 360 reviews or being really self-aware, they can start to do the work and be open to the feedback.
Brandon: That’s interesting because your point that this person was totally open and became self-aware through some sort of feedback. Some people would take it two different ways, they would take feedback critically and wouldn’t want to take that and actually develop. This person was open and wanted to listen to what you had to say.
Tana: You need to be accountable, you need to take ownership and that’s another foundational quality in leaders is that you take ownership for your actions. And he was willing to do that and really do the work to get to where he wanted to be. He owned the situation and really dove in and did the work on himself and has taken on increased responsibility and is viewed as a really effective senior leader and a key contributor in the organization.
Brandon: Do you think it mattered that you were an external person versus somebody internally within a company trying to coach? Do you think it would have made a difference?
Tana: I think there is a nice value add with it being a third party, there is a little more objectivity and a distance from it, and there certainly can be a check-in and an update with the manager’s manager on progress and the employee’s involvement and willingness to do the work there and be accountable for the work. I definitely think there is a really nice perspective through utilizing a third party HR professional or coach in these types of situations.
Brandon: What do you think is the one thing that needed to happen in that particular relationship that you would have been like, This is been a success, I am glad we did this and then the person was also glad. What was that maybe one thing?
Tana: Yeah, I think what’s really exciting in serving in this role for managers is the lightbulb moment. So when it starts clicking and they say, Oh it makes total sense! I wish I would have had this 5-7 years ago in leadership, I could never look that at this way. When the a-ha moment comes, it’s really rewarding, then it’s just Okay, give me this information, I want more, I want more kind of thing, they’re just thirsting for additional knowledge and resources and then you really can see the growth at that point when they have that lightbulb moment because they have to do the work and they have to buy into it.Brandon: As employers, that have a lack of resources but want to develop these next level leaders, how do they get to that and how do they develop some of these coaching relationships if they don’t even know where to start?
Tana: I think they need to look for outside resources if they don’t have a training and development professional in their organization or a partnership with another coaching organization. They need to dedicate the resources to look to see who those high potentials are. It’s not just those that have leadership gaps, we all have leadership gaps, we all have things that we excel at and things that we need to work on. The goal is to continue and get better, and I think when you are a high performer you can get better, you can’t just settle and say, Oh that’s just them – we should just focus on their strengths, right? We have to leverage those strengths but we also have to look at what the derailers, the derailers are those things that can really get in the way of them being effective as a leader. So I think it’s important for organizations to be forward thinking about developing future talent, and that’s a key differentiator now. We talk about employees and how prospective candidates are looking for more than just paying benefits, they are looking for development opportunities, Millennials want development opportunities, even the Gen Z-ers, who are the generation that is following the Gen Y or Millennials, they want to be developed, they want the career path, and so if you are a small organization, in order to compete you need to look for ways to continue to develop and built the talent that you have.
Brandon: I’ve noticed in my years of talking with people, not everybody has the same level of needs and wants and aspirations when it comes to leadership.
Tana: Right! Not everybody wants to move up the ladder.
Brandon: As a leader in your position as a VP for HR, how do you figure out which people really want and need those coaching relationship pieces versus those who need a different kind of development?
Tana: Constantly look at talent and do a talent review of your teams, or have HR help you to do talent reviews for your team and look at the willing and able category. Your high performers, typically 10-15% of your organization, engage them in a development plan and see what that looks like for this year, or maybe 5 years, and offer this service to those employees and say you know if you follow this track and we have an opening, you should be ready for this next step at X point. So, it’s more of a like leadership development or a leadership-in-training program. I think we need to look for opportunities around that.
Brandon: We started off the conversation by talking about how a lot of times people are just really good at what they do, they are high performers, and then get shoved in a leadership position. In our leadership team we’re reading a book titled The Leadership Contract, and the theme that I am pulling from that book is, leadership is hard and you really want to have to do it and you have to commit to it. So when you are developing future leaders, how do you hone that in? Like, hey, this is going to be a tough road, you are going to be committed to it otherwise maybe it’s not for you, how do you see that?
Tana: Well, I think you start them out with mentoring others, giving them small leadership responsibilities, giving them 1-2 direct reports to start, or leading a project, and then see how they do. See how open to feedback they are and if they are willing to do the tough work because it can be, at times, thankless, it can be unpopular. It’s doing it because you are committed to the organization, you are committed to leading and doing the right thing even when it’s tough.
Brandon: Going back to the relationship you had in your coaching relationship, and just what you see generally, what are a lot of the gaps that you see? If you are going to be a great leader, an aspiring leader may be lacking in these areas before they sort of become great.
Tana: I think visibility is key, being present, staying engaged, being able to motivate and inspire are really important. I think emotional intelligence comes up, but the best leaders know how to establish trust and are really effective communicators and are able to get the best out of everybody. So I think EIQ is really important – the self-awareness, self-management, social-awareness, relationship management are critical because if you don’t know how to build trust or if you frequently take trust with draws, you are not going to get an engaged workforce and you are not going to get people giving maximum output or performing at their maximum capacity.
Brandon: When you talk about EQ—emotional intelligence—it seems like that would be a common gap that you see. How do you develop that?
Tana: Some people are better at it than others or have more natural instincts around emotional intelligence but I think it’s doing the hard work. If you are somebody that that doesn’t come easy to and you are more task focused, identifying your blind spots and being able to flex your style and being able to meet people where they are at and just doing the work, there are lots of tools, assessments, books and resources out there and it’s about creating new habits in learning how to flex those styles and also leverage others on your team who do maybe have a higher EIQ.Brandon: And it seems to me like you just need to be out talking with people a lot more so that you could empathetic to their positions and just getting to know people.
Tana: Listening, validating, not having the answers all the time, having the team give input, collaborating.
Brandon: And that’s the one unique thing about when you have a high performer who is really technical. Now they are in this leadership position, they sort of have all the answers because they are good at this area, but now they are thrust into this different area which is leadership and you don’t know all the answers and you are trying to motivate and inspire others, so I think the EQ thing makes a lot of sense.
Tana: It’s hard to make the initial shift from getting the work done yourself and being able to control the outcome versus having to develop and get the work done through others and delegate, but that’s a sign of a true senior leader, it’s getting the work done through others and motivating others and developing others and ensuring others are in the right positions and are set up for success and you are moving obstacles for them and making sure they have the right support structure to succeed. I think that’s the hard part, making that shift to getting the work done through others, particularly when you get to a senior level, you’ve got to work on the business and not be in the business as much. That’s why it’s even more important to be able to train and develop your mid-level, first line managers so they can work pretty independently and make decisions on behalf of the organization – that’s why that trust and communication are really vital.
Brandon: Going back to the coaching relationship and the technical aspects of a relationship like that, what do you feel works best especially when you are starting out? How do you get somebody fired up about learning about leadership?
Tana: I don’t know if you can get them fired up—they have to be inspired, they have to want to sign up for leadership. You can tell when somebody is passionate about what they are doing and passionate about doing it through people, I think that’s a good starting point and it starts with that passion for people and the passion for excellence and being committed to do the work for leadership. I think development is very individual focused, I think we cannot motivate others to want to be leaders, they have to be self-motivated. That’s that willing piece, if they are showing that willing piece or the openness to do the work that’s kind of that first line there and then seeing that continual growth in themselves is really key.
Brandon: Do you find that in those meetings, are you doing a lot of the talking or you are asking a lot of questions? Are you letting them talk?
Tana: Questions, some guiding, some facilitation, but they mostly have to do the work. It’s the leader doing the work, nobody else can do it, and that’s what I think is true of development in general, if somebody wants to develop, it’s on them, it’s not on leadership to do it. So leadership can develop their resources and the tools and the opportunities, but it’s up to each individual if they want to move into leadership. And some of those things are initiative and drive and seeing opportunity and digging in when things need to get done and just that initiative.
Brandon: How do you initially set up a relationship like this? Should it be on the employer or should it be, hey I am an aspiring leader and I want this, I need this and then the employee really takes control of their own development, they go to their employees and say, I really need this or is it just you look at your high po’s as an employer and you say, hey we need to get these people coaching, they are lacking in these areas, they need to get that to the next level. How does it start?
Tana: I think it can be a variety of ways that somebody engages in a leadership coaching 1-to-1 relationship. I think it could be letting HR and executive leadership know that this resource is available to them and the benefits and what it looks like, it can be as part of a career development program in an existing company that’s building out career pathing and developing their future leaders, so it can be proactive that way, it can be more reactive when there’s a situation where somebody does want to take it to the next level as a leader, and there is a derailer, maybe they don’t have their respect of others on the organization or in another department and they have goals or aspirations of moving into a higher role, maybe it could be something along those lines. I think it really depends and then the company really needs to invest in their potential leader or their future leader or their existing leader that wants it to take it to the next level.
Brandon: How much time is involved in something like this?Tana: The 1-to-1’s, there’s going to be some homework or some reflection and some book reading, so I think that would be on their own self-study, but I think the 1-to-1’s, you’d meet once a month, once every other month for an hour, hour and a half. It could be a 3 to 6-month engagement, it could be ongoing as well until we have hit or accomplish their goals.
Brandon: You talked about the relationship that you had, it was done after a couple of months, so there obviously must have been a really great impact. What does done look like?
Tana: Done looks like the employee has created a work environment in which employees are engaged and thriving, they’re getting positive feedback from the employees, really looking at turnover. We did with surveys as well for this particular location. It’s also getting a sign-off from their manager and determining that we accomplished what we set out to accomplish at this point, so there is no need to carry on further, but some could continue on those 1-to-1’s depending on what their development path or their end game is.
Brandon: What sort of books or assessments are you giving them as take-home work in this sort of relationship? It probably depends.
Tana: It depends. There are a lot of tools out there, we’ve utilized DISC, there’s Myers Briggs, there are other similar assessments. It would be a great starting point to see what the employee’s natural style is and maybe where their blind spots are. There are emotional intelligence assessments that can be really helpful. Particularly looking at their past performance reviews, 360 reviews. We can benchmark it at the end of the coaching and have them do another review and see how it measures up to the past review to see if we’ve had some improvement in those particular competencies. So there are lots of ways to measure and really set a benchmark for where we want to grow and develop and then measure that against that benchmark.
Brandon: This has been really interesting. Anything else regarding just the leadership coaching that the listeners should know about?
Tana: I think it’s really important for forward-thinking employers to invest in leadership. Looking at the talent shortage we do have a lack of leadership out there. It’s easy to manage because you can get the work done and it’s tangible, it’s less easy to develop leaders and it’s an ongoing process and journey. So we really need to put that investment in our people early on and make it an ongoing process and have ways that we can feed knowledge and information and allow them to get real feedback to ensure that they are as effective as they can for their organization.
Brandon: Awesome! Tana Thomson, thanks for joining the podcast, really appreciate it.
Tana: Thank you!
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